Transcript

Adam Honig: I could do this intro in my sleep, and sometimes I do. I used to practice it, you know, a bunch of times before every podcast, and now I’m just like, all right, whatever. 

Hello and welcome to Make It, Move It, Sell It. On this podcast, I talk with company leaders about how they’re modernizing the business of making, moving, and selling products, and of course, having fun along the way. I’m your host, Adam Honig, the CEO of Spirit ai. We make amazing AI software for companies in the supply chain, but we’re not talking about that today.

Instead, today, we’re talking to Martin Lou, the CEO of a company called Commtrex, which is a tech enabled rail logistics provider. Welcome to the show Martin.

Martin Lew: Thank you, Adam. Thank you for having me on the show today.

Adam Honig: Yeah, my pleasure. Hey, just tell us a little bit about Commtrex and you know, kind of how you got there.

Martin Lew: Yes, absolutely. So, Commtrex was started, back in 2017 and in a prior life I was a commodity trader for JP Morgan Bear Stearns on the Coal and Environment markets desk. We were moving millions of tons of coal a year. And I saw several inefficiencies with how shippers interface with the industry.

And the vision was to create a digital ecosystem or a platform that connected the supply and demand side to the industry. Because I saw that the puck was headed in the direction where, eventually there was gonna be one centralized platform or database where shippers would have to go in order to be able to connect with all the rail surf terminals, ports, warehouses, leasors and service providers and railroads.

And the rule – the concept was to create a very simple way for, for these shippers to connect visa marketplaces, create a very sort of, vast knowledge base or repository of information so that as the expertise leaves the industry, there is a centralized, corpus of knowledge, that shippers can always tap into.

And then, number three, really sort of making connectivity much, much easier. Instead of having to pick the phone up and have to wait to a conference to meet somebody, you can do it all through an electronic platform.

Adam Honig: So, let me see if I understand this correctly. You were trading coal and other commodities, you know, real man kind of materials, right? And then a lot of it being shipped over rail and you realized there was this gap in the marketplace that was really, you know, the, the shippers and other people were kind of disconnected.

And your service kind of connects the two together? Is that how it works?

Martin Lew: That’s exactly right. So,in the trading world, timing is of the essence. So anytime there was a position you wanted to put on, you had to figure out all the different inputs for that delivered cost. So everything from the barging, the freight, the trucking, the rail piece…and the rail piece was always the part that was the toughest to put in place because of the opacity that existed in the industry.

And then you wouldn’t know who to call if you weren’t a part of the industry. And so sitting at one of the largest banks in the world I was having issues with it. I just foresaw: if I’m having issues, there must be shippers of all sizes that are probably experiencing the same issues. And then as time goes on and, and you, you didn’t have those relationships, that issue was only gonna get exacerbated over time.

Just like every other industry that was getting effectively enabled by technology, rail was just probably one of the modes of transportation that didn’t catch up yet because in trucking there were load boards and in ocean going freight. There were very liquid exchanges and platforms, even hedging instruments, and in rail.

Nothing was created at the time that I started Commtrex.

Adam Honig: So you’re focused on rail, at least initially. And I know there’s other parts of transportation that we’re gonna get to, but, tell me a little bit about the rail industry. There’s been a lot of consolidation, you know, going on in the industry. You know, how much materials is sent through rail these days? 

Martin Lew: So when you think about the goods that move over land. 

So there’s only two rays really to move freight over land. It’s truck and rail. About 40% of all goods that move on land are gonna move by rail. And then when you look at commodities, Specifically, you think about your consumers and producers of raw materials, that’s closer to 60% of all goods that are commodities that are moved by rail. 

And rail has a significant tailwind behind it because of the sustainability angle. Effectively, it’s four trucks for every one rail car when you’re moving freight. So rail is about 75%, uh, more sort of sustainable or carbon friendly than trucking.

So right now there is a big push going on in the industry for there to be a lot more conversion of truck lanes to rail lanes because of the significance, sort of push to that ESG is having across the world.

Adam Honig: Yeah that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I think that, when people think about rail, I mean… I commute via train. So I’m, you know, involved with trains a lot. But I feel like trucks are so visible because everybody’s driving around and seeing them all over the place that it just feels like everything gets shipped via truck.

But, you know, 60% of commodities, that’s a pretty high percentage. 

Martin Lew: And the two primary parameters that when you’re a shipper and you’re thinking about moving by rail, what is really the filter is to decide whether it makes sense to move by rail. 

Number one is distance. Any freight that’s moving 500, 600 miles plus, rail is gonna be the cheapest per ton, per gallon, per mile.

Because if you’re moving coal, for example, coal is at the consumption level. You know, the US consumes about 600, 7,000 million tons of coal each year. And there’s just not nearly enough trucks to be able to move 600 million tons of coal across the US. Infrastructure in the US isn’t fit for that.

So number one is the distance. 

And then number two is the volume of product that you’re moving. So when you’re talking about large commodities like coal or oil or chemicals, plastic pellets, still lumber, those types of common commodities that move in high volume, there’s just not enough trucks to be able to facilitate that.

So that’s why, you know, trains and then think about where trains go, right? They’re going a lot of times to very rural areas. They’re going through mountains, they’re going through, areas where there’s just not a lot of infrastructure. So trains can do a lot of things at a much cheaper cost that trucks cannot do.

Adam Honig: So it’s cheaper, it’s more environmentally friendly. So it sounds great. I mean, of course you can’t have the train come to your door, but besides that, you know, what are the disadvantages of rail? 

Martin Lew: I think what you just said. So the rail is for the middle mile of the move. That’s where rail competes with, with trucking being that middle mile piece. But, the disadvantage of rail, and this is something that a part of the supply industry called transit kind of addresses and solves, is that first and last mile piece.

Rail is expensive to be able to implement or to install at your facility. So if you don’t have a rail service facility – if you’re not gonna invest the millions of dollars into investing into that rail spur and all the different components of that rail spur to be able to facilitate rail coming in and out, the way to be able to move freight by rail is through transloading. 

So you would truck your product to a transit facility. And then loaded onto a rail car at the facility. 

So that’s probably the biggest constraint, is just the CapEx investment that would go into being able to move freight by rail at your facility.

And then also there’s not as many telematics that exist today as there are on trucking. So you can track trucks in real time, Tracking of rail cars is done in near real time. But telematics is something that is coming. If you need something and that’s that, it’s a real-time tracking capability.

Rail isn’t quite there yet, but it’ll soon be there because there are companies out there that are proliferating IOT sensors so that you can track it in real time.

Adam Honig: Right, right, right. You just throw an apple tile on it or whatever those things are called. But let’s go back to transloading, because I’m really interested in this. A lot of people have been talking about transloading, so just in case people aren’t familiar with it, you know, just maybe tell people what it is. 

Martin Lew: So transloading is a pretty simple concept. It’s really just moving freight from one mode of transportation to another. 

So there’s two different contexts that you can think of transloading in. Number one is, you know, any container that’s coming in from overseas. So think, you know, containers coming in from China to Los Angeles, or somewhere on the West coast.

Those containers get transloaded off of a ship, then on to land and it gets trained to a warehouse, or put onto an intermodal train. Then moved to wherever it’s going in the US, Canada, or Mexico. So that’s one component of transmitting when the other component of transmitting is, is commodity sort of transmitting where you’re moving actual physical goods.

So whether that be liquids such as oil or chemicals, whether it be hazmat or non-hazmat chemicals, or if you’re talking about, uh, dry bulk products such as lumber, steel, non-ferrous metals, or any type of metal. 

So those are the two assets that- the two different sorts of buckets of transloading.

The one that probably is most obviously everybody, the containers that you see at any port across the country. The one that’s probably less obvious is when you’re talking about moving liquids or moving dry bulk products. But it’s a very critical piece to the supply chain.

And it’s something that doesn’t have a lot of visibility. An analogy that I always like to use is airports. The more nodes that you have on the network, so the more regional airports you have, the more people that you could move across the different regions of, of North America.

So for rail, one of the largest and most important mechanisms for them to be able to grow their footprint, is transloading because not everyone is going to be able to invest or justify the spend on CapEx for putting rail spurs facilities. But if rail does make sense because the volume is there and then the distance is there, transloading is the way for them to do that, and that’s why there’s a lot of investment going on right now, not only from the, the rail side of the business, but also from the shipper side. There’s a lot of diversification that’s going on so that they don’t have to rely so heavily on just trucks moving their product, uh, either first, middle, or last mile.

But now everyone, you know, post COVID is trying to create more diversification and less concentration and exposure into one mode of transportation.

Adam Honig: Gotcha. So if I’m a ball bearing manufacturer and, and we have customers in the ball bearing business, I don’t mean that like, in a funny way, it’s just something that’s super important. Actually, there was a lot of news about ball bearings recently cuz there’s a bit of a shortage in the war in Ukraine, but that’s a completely different topic.

So, if we’re making ball bearings, we might just think, oh, well trucking is the only way to go. But with Transloading, this is the opportunity for us to now, get the benefits of the environmental approach, as well as the lower cost of rail transportation. 

Martin Lew: That’s exactly right. So flexibility in the supply chain: I think Covid really highlighted how inflexible,the supply chain was. And it worked great. You know, prior to Covid… obviously there were bumps, there were still blind spots as far as visibility is concerned, and the supply chain.

But when you have a Black Swan event like COVID happen and there’s a lot of issues with being able to get product to from origin and destination. All of a sudden you have to look really hard at how you’re moving things because you can’t think that there is not gonna be another Black Swan event.

That comes and, and now that you have shippers, whether it be a big box store or commodity consumer-producer, now they’re getting ahead of that. So they went effectively from a “just in time” model, which was kind of your more traditional sort of way that you manage supply chain to what they call a “just in case” model.

So you have more areas where you’re having product staged so that if there was this major disruption or interruption in your supply chain, uh, you can quickly flex to another mode or to another sort of, a hub and spoke part of the country

Adam Honig: And we’ve been talking with a lot of people who’ve been, uh, focused on bringing manufacturing back to North America too. I mean that, how is that impacting the rail market from your perspective? 

Martin Lew: That’s a significant tailwind for rail. There’s a lot of onshoring that is happening. In particular you’re seeing a lot more facilities or manufacturing plants coming up in Mexico. 

Obviously the reason why people offshore is all costs, right? It’s all labor costs. When you’re thinking about where to put that auto manufacturing facility or where to put that chemical facility, cost is always gonna be top of mind for you.

Not only is cost top of mind, but you’re also thinking transportation. So, you know, volatility was extremely high during COVID. Even pre COVID. So if you’re moving anything across North America, instead of having to rely on that ocean freight market being consistent and having less volatility, that the pricing for that market does not have as many swings…there’s a lot more that you can control if you’re working within the parameters of North America. And I think that’s just, you know, overall politically, there’s a real higher sense of how can we keep jobs in North America?

You couple that sense of wanting to do more here in North America, not only for economic reasons, but for political reasons. I think there’s a major tailwind for rail because the primary way that you’re gonna be able to move those products that you’re onshoring in North America particularly because you’re dealing with long distance moves and typically high volume moves, rail’s gonna be probably the biggest beneficiary of that movement.

Adam Honig: right. And I think combining with the transloading, you know, where you can basically use both, you know, rail and traditional trucking to carry products, it makes it a lot more attractive for people. Because you’re right, the container cost coming from Asia, I mean, it’s tripled. It went in half, it went up, it went down again. I mean, it’s just been all over the place. 

Martin Lew: That’s exactly right. So you, you know, at its peak it could go up to $20,000 and now you’re looking at a $1,000-$2,000 container cost from Asia to the west coast of the United States.

Adam Honig: But the rail prices have been more consistent?

Martin Lew: The rail price is yes, exactly. There’s not, there’s not much volatility. You have a closed network.

You have seven Class I railroads, and then you have your Class II railroads. So it’s a pretty contained environment, versus the ocean. And you have several major ocean carriers. And, it’s a much less volatile market because you have a much more contained network that you’re moving, goods and, and volume on.

So in some respects, I think that is very helpful because I think supply chain is all about being able to project what that delivered cost is. And you know, that volatility swing, whether it be in trucking or whether it be in ocean freight, you don’t experience that same sort of swings and volatility in rail.

Adam Honig: Yeah, no, for sure. Well, let me ask you another question. So I know in a lot of our customers we’re seeing sort of a generational change. You know, maybe in a family business, the more senior family members are kind of stepping back and there’s a new generation coming up and they’re implementing new things within the businesses.

What are you seeing in your sector in that way? 

Martin Lew: I’m glad you touched upon that because that was the primary investment thesis when we started Commtrex. At the beginning of the company when we were raising our first round of investment capital, that was one of the main theses that we were talking to investors about was the fact that there was a major generational shift that’s happening.

You know, back in 2017, we were looking, you know, forward looking and 2020 it was gonna be 50% of the global workforce were gonna be millennials. And by the time you get to 2020, 75% of the workforce would be millennials. Now the thing about millennials is they’re the first generation of digital natives, uh, that, that exist.

And obviously it only has become more progressive now with the Gen Y and Gen Z generations. But if that truly is the case, I think an important stat that really sort of stood out to me was the average amount of time that a baby boomer stays at one company or in a job is eight to nine years.

Gen Xer, which is the generation I’m in is six to seven years, and a millennial is two to three years. So if you just take that stat alone and you take that and couple that with the fact that the generational shift is happening at an enormous amount where you know, half, if not two thirds of the workforce will be millennials.

You’re never gonna have a 15 to 20 year fleet manager or supply chain manager ever again at one company. And historically in rail, most of that is in source. So that knowledge, those relationships, those connections that they have were never historically an issue because that one person knew their railroad rep or their lessor rep or whoever that is on the service side to deal with. 

But if you were to take that same sort of position or seat and that knowledge goes away and leaves, leaves that particular company and there’s no in succession plan or there’s no institutionalized knowledge, there’s no very easy way to, for them to be able to pass that knowledge and pass those connections along.

So that was what we saw sort of back in 2017, was there was gonna be data or a repository of information and someone was gonna need to create a marketplace so that if you stepped into a seat at, you know, you named the big box retailer consumer, ou wouldn’t have to know rail for the past 10 to 15 years to be able to understand all the dynamics of moving a rail.

You wouldn’t have to have all the relationships there. You could log into a platform, have visibility into the supply set capacity, be able to look at prices and data and then be able to connect with the supply side. And you know, the other thing we do is we also have a resource center. We have newsletters that go out over three times a week.

And what the idea was, we need to create this education and this format so that if you’re new to rail, you don’t have to rely on, uh, speaking with that person who’s been doing rail for 15, 20 years. You can go to a centralized repository and be able to learn about it. Educate yourself so when I go into a marketplace, connect, negotiate, uh, and be able to execute a transaction with very limited experience and knowledge in rail.

Adam Honig: So, let me make sure I understand this correctly. So, Big box retailer, let’s just call it, uh, Target. You know, there was somebody, or a couple of people who knew everything about rail and they had it all in their heads and they just knew, you know, what, what to do. But the problem is that, you know, over the coming number of years, a lot of these people are retiring and, you know, it’s a little bit of a specialized skill.

And so there was no real good way for people in the next generation to really know how to do that. 

Martin Lew: That’s exactly right. Yeah. 

And, and just to put another final point on that versus trucking. You could pick the phone up and you can call, uh, a 3PL, a 4PL. You can call a freight broker and have a product moved, from Chicago to LA off of a phone call and a quick onboarding document, credit check that that isn’t possible in rail.

You would need to be able to establish a credit line with the railroad. You need to be able to figure out how you’re gonna get rail cars, whether that be system cars in the rail, or if you’re moving liquids you need to figure out how to source those cars from a lessor. You need to be able to figure out transloading.

If you’d have a rail service facility, you need to find a transloader or a port or a warehouse. You can move that to, um, you need to understand how to manage the freight rates and not how to manage to merge and how to manage storage. There are all these elements that you need to figure out. And this is one of the reasons why we actually started a logistics services or managed services business last year is because about a third of all the shippers that use our system have never even moved freight by rail before.

And, you know, at the end of the day, you know, if you’re a shipper, the goal is to find the cheapest, most delivered cost and more efficient way to move the product. And, their goal isn’t to train and become experts in rail. What they really wanna do is they want to be able to find a platform or find a provider they can work with that they know they can trust to be able to move that freight and product while also being educated enough to be able to communicate to the VP or to the management why they’re choosing to move that freight via rail.

So, you know, the, the, the managed services component with the technology and data, all three of those together are, were, was really the issue we were trying to solve.

Adam Honig: So, it’s less expensive, more environmentally friendly, but a little bit harder to do in a way then. Especially without that specialized knowledge. 

Martin Lew: That’s exactly right. And I think once you do have that specialized knowledge sort of historically, that did become an edge for your business because you did have that ability to flex on rail where if you didn’t know how to do that, you couldn’t take advantage of those cost savings that you get with moving freight by rail.

So that was really what we were trying to solve and to speak to the generational shift. That was the reason why a lot of shippers were actually coming to us. If you knew rail, there was no reason to use a platform like us. And then all of a sudden what happened was you had this generational shift, probably not too different than what you’re seeing with your platform and the next generation comes in.

They said, “Well, how can we do this in a better, more efficient, more effective way?” 

And then when they speak to a Spiro or to a Commtrex and they discover how much efficiency and how much data and how quickly they can make data driven decisions, it becomes a no-brainer for whatever the spend is.

It’s a drastic transformation for that business.

Adam Honig: Yeah, no, it’s really interesting. It’s very analogous to our situation a lot. You know, the customers that we’re working with, they’re dealing with the retirement of their sales teams. Uh, and you know, these are guys who’ve just been working a territory for 30, 35 years, 40 years, and, and they’re gonna leave and retire.

And, you know, frankly, the company doesn’t have a relationship with their customers, the salesperson does. And so, getting that institutional knowledge as you put it, is, uh, super critical. So it’s like we’re kind of approaching the same sort of issue that way. 

Martin Lew: That’s exactly right. And the knowledge, uh, that you’re capturing in the, in the CRM system, the knowledge that we’re capturing in our platform really is all driven around data and the way that we make things easier to be able to have data at the fingertips of our shippers is the same thing that you’re doing to be able to create a very quick way for your customers to have access so they can make quicker decisions when they’re trying to move a commercial deal or a commercial opportunity along the pipeline faster.

Adam Honig: Yeah, no, that’s that. It sounds very, very similar. Now let me ask you this. 

So I know, like, a lot of our customers don’t feel like they’re technology forward businesses. And it sounds like in rail. But even in these industries, I feel like AI has really grabbed people’s attention.

So what has been the attitude in, in your world, about AI?

Martin Lew: I, I think AI hasn’t really hit home yet as far as how transformational AI is going to be. Not just to our industry, but to every industry and to all of our personal lives. Um, obviously, you know, with the proliferation of chatGPT, three and now, now four, which just came out a few months ago. It’s really sort of changing the way people do things, you know, and changing where really that expertise needs to lie in order for people to execute, you know, sort of effectively.

So I do think that AI, and I always reference, when I think AI, it sounds like a very complex topic, but I boiled AI down to really simply: it’s just that the science of decision making, you know, how can you make decisions more, more effectively, you know, using as many data points as possible. And AI is really just a co-pilot for the decisions you’re making in whatever context you’re making them in. Whether that be trying to decide, you know, what’s the best restaurant to go to for your date night with your wife, or whether it’s what’s the best mode of transportation to move or how should I more effectively be able to move a sale on the pipeline.

Everybody needs a co-pilot to help do things that they can’t do as quickly. I think this is probably gonna be the most transformative technology outside the internet that we’re gonna ever see in our lifetime.

Adam Honig: Yeah, for sure. I mean, we see applications of it all over the place. I’m sure you do too. But to help people, you know, come up with the routing and planning and optimization of shipment, I think there’s a lot that the AI can be doing in that area. 

Martin Lew: Absolutely. And the timing of AI coming out there, there’s no coincidence that there’s this major uptick in people using AI, even though it just came out so quickly and the generational shift that’s happening. As the next generation gen comes into these seats, these business-to-business sort of seats where there’s a lot of industry knowledge, kinda like you were saying, where there’s this generational knowledge that, that typically was there, but then someone jumps into the seat and they don’t have that background, that knowledge. 

There’s those relationships, you know? How do you, how do you sort of make up for that? How do you compensate for those 10, 15 years of experience? Well, how you do that is you lean on data and you lean on data that’s gonna be effectively processed in seconds through a co-pilot, you know, in, in the form of AI.

And so for us, that’s a component of technology that we are working on integrating into our system. Because I think, you know, no different than your industry and, and how you’re working on integrating AI into the CRM platform, we are also figuring out how can we create a co-pilot experience so that when someone’s looking to lease cars, when they’re looking to transit, or they’re looking to store cars, when they’re looking for a terminal port or warehouse, they don’t have to go try to consume information quickly, understand it, process it, talk to people.

You know, in theory that can all be done through a mechanism called AI.

Adam Honig: Yeah. Yeah. No, it’s very exciting. I mean, I totally agree with you. I feel like we’re right on the cusp of what’s gonna happen with it. And I think one of the exciting things for me and, and people I’ve been talking with is that nobody really knows exactly how it’s gonna play out. You know, so that, that’ll be super interesting to see. 

Martin Lew: Yeah. And I do think that there’s a lot of caution from the folks at OpenAI who created chatGPT and others that are shepherding the AI sort of technology along. I think there’s a little caution in making sure that it doesn’t roll out too quickly. Because something that I think comes up quite often is how is the next generation going to think if they can go to an application and the application does all the thinking for them. Unlike when we were growing up where, you know, we actually had to go to the library, you had to lean on books and you had to learn in order to write that essay in college. It’s different now.

I mean, how does a teacher distinguish whether AI or chatGPT wrote an essay versus whether an actual person wrote the essay? 

Adam Honig: Yeah. Well, and there’s a lot of trust issues involved in AI. I mean, I know that anytime the AI is gonna make a recommendation, whether it’s about who to call or you know, the best path to take for, you know, something in logistics, like if it gets it wrong, that’s a major issue.

You know, and so I think one of the challenges that we’ve been seeing with the chatGPT style, large language models is they do have a tendency to hallucinate a little bit and just pull stuff out of their ear, so to speak. 

Martin Lew: Yeah, and you hit the nail on the head. I think that is probably in the near term. That’s probably the greatest danger that we face, is you, you come to rely on the information and data that’s coming through chatGPT and it provides you with so much information with such conviction that it’s correct.

And obviously conviction is used loosely because it’s just text that’s coming at you, but you rely on it. And you think that when you put in a question that it’s gonna give you something that’s factual. Well, if I go to ChatGPT and ask who is Martin Lew of Commtrex, it said I worked at these banks that I never worked for.

And it also says that I had experience, you know, at other companies that I never worked for. I mean it captured maybe 50, 60% of the information correctly, but if you didn’t know that, if you weren’t Martin Lew and you were just typing that into chatGPT and that was the information that was that you got as a response or reply back you would not know if that was true or not, and you would question whether my profile on LinkedIn was actually accurate or not.

Adam Honig: Yeah, no, I like to tell people that it’s a hundred percent accurate 70% of the time because that’s, that’s, that’s the way that I really feel about it. So, you know, in some domains that’s acceptable. But I think where you and I come from, I think we demand a higher level of fidelity. 

Martin Lew: Yeah, absolutely. And if you’re the younger generation coming through education or through your career and, and obviously it’s just gonna get more refined over time… how are you gonna be able to distinguish whether it is true or not?

When that becomes, you know, almost gospel for you when you’re making decisions because you, you’re relying upon the integrity of the data to be correct or accurate.

Adam Honig: No, I’m with you. Hey, Martin, this has been awesome. I’m so happy you were able to make it onto the podcast. Really appreciate your coming here today. 

Martin Lew: Well, thank you for having me. Hopefully this was enlightening for the audience. I know rail is a very niche topic. Niche in transportation supply chain because it’s not as sort of widely known as, as trucking and ocean freight. But I absolutely appreciate you having me on to talk about what we’re doing and how we’re really trying to add value to the the rail logistic space.

Adam Honig: Yeah. 60% commodity shipment. I don’t think that’s, you know, small. I mean, I think we need to get more people thinking about it, especially for the environmental benefits that we’ve been talking about. 

Martin Lew: Absolutely. And I always tell people, just look around your house or look around your office or restaurant, every single thing, whether it be the electricity for the lights or the wood for your walls or the metal, for your desk, everything that, that you’re using to be able to sort of function in life.

Those are all driven by commodity inputs. And they all got to you most likely in some form or fashion. It touched rail at some point in that move. So it just really is a critical component of the supply chain and the economy.

Adam Honig: Just hopefully touched it in the car, not on the rail itself. That’s all I want to say 

Martin Lew: That’s exactly, that’s exactly right.

Adam Honig: Gotcha. Well, once again, Martin, really appreciate your coming on the program. 

Martin Lew: Well, thank you again for having me. I’d love to be back sometime.

Adam Honig: Right on. As a reminder for our listeners, you can find every episode of the Make It. Move It. Sell It. podcast at Spiro.ai slash podcast. what I recommend you do is subscribe. If you think that it’s a good podcast, why not? Maybe give us a good review. Martin, what do you think? Should people give us a good rating? 

Martin Lew: A hundred percent when they have topics like rail where they’re gonna educate people. Absolutely. Everybody should be giving raving reviews about the podcast.

Adam Honig: Exactly. Just do it for Martin, if not for me. Thanks for everybody for tuning in, and we look forward to speaking to you at the next episode.